but less range on them - the velocity bonus is gone.

and once again, the versatility of 5 utility/support drones is GONE

275% of 2 is not 7.5, it's 5.5

While I maxed out hybrid skills years ago missiles were just more fun. Thats why I speced into the Gila and Rattle. Drones + Missiles, now nothing fits this formula really.

but who ever bought and flew a rattlesnake primarily for it's missile capabilities


list everything that the rattlesnake is losing in this change
list everything that the rattlesnake is gaining in this change

the first list dwarfs the second list

Way to nerf the Rattlesnake into a useless piece of trash. **** you CCP.

DAMN IT RISE, you know not to do Battleship threads before I get home, you cost me isk. I'm filling a support ticket for reimbursement!!!

Well, after I head down to Blood Raider sapce and start farmin me some 'Snake BPCs lol.

I give up. If anyone can tell me what one roll a NM can do better than any other boat, please tell me.

Mine is currently cruise fit, and with the increase from 4 to 7.5 effective launchers it means some testing to see where a new balance falls will be needed. Fitting a 4th DDA over a BCU was a given but after the changes not so much. There is also some other splits to consider, TP's vs Omni's/DLA's comes to mind. Rigors got more attractive on the hull too.

I have yet to see a PVE rattlesnake survive any attack in null. Or kill a single attacker. We kill quite a lot of them so even if what you say is true it changes nothing. (even the guy that used ecm drones to escape the 1st grid died after he landed from warp.

this is the snake I would like to see:

RATTLESNAKE

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% missile velocity

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
7.5% missile damage

Role Bonus:
25% missile ROF


Slot layout: 8H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 8 launchers(+4)
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 12750 / 8940(-358) / 9960
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 5350(+38) / 1154000ms / 4.59
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .128 / 99300000 / 18.45s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 200(-200)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450(-10)

personally this feels allot more like the snake should be.

700 cruise dps before any BCS's or drones. dream on lol

so, you can get the max dps out of an mach/vindy using 4 out of 20 slots, while on rattle you need to use 6 out of 19 slots; is that ballanced?

You have heard of a module called the Mobile Depot yes? The one that allows you to change modules AND DRONES whilst in space? Or are you arguing that you would use your salvage drones whilst still engaged?

I also fly an RS, i also chose it for its versatility. Do i feel screwed over by these new changes? Hell no, i have never been happier. I can now focus more on what is going on around me than on my 5 little guys HP bars, i can do significantlymore DPS, and with the mobile depot i keep a very high degree of versatility.

'I picked a ship with a large drone bay' - yes, one that at the time had a justifiably large bay as it needed to field 5 sentry drones (read 125 m3 of space) to put down maximum DPS. We now need to field 2 sentries (or 50m3) to do EXACTLY the same. So please, justify how we should keep a 400m3 drone bay???

So you want eight-launcher shield-tanked missile boats with precision bonuses?

Well, it's your lucky day!

It seems u misunderstanding something .Apha isn't something u trade against dps ,it's something u trade against reload time ...In ur case u fire a 3780 volleyr every 6s61 in my case i fire a 7844 volley every 15s11 .
Meaning ur punching 7560 volley every 13 s so who is at advantage in both sustained and burst damage here ....

So yes currently Nightmare is at advantage in every relevant aspects ,equal burst, better sustained dps , easier fitting capability ,better utilities ,easier to train ,cheaper fit and an incoming 6 th lows slot...Oh yeah, alpha only matters in PVP where both ships found there usage in incursions .what's else ?

I don't want my previous reply sound like a criticism of new ideas, yes I agree there are new roles possible here to make an awesome ship using rapid launchers or even very close range torpedoes.
My current concern is that the rattlesnake has been passed over by players as it does not have enough "special" about it currently to match other, better ships.

The bonus to missiles, lifts it into the next level where it is an equal if different ship to the other pirate vessels.

However, there is an issue here, where the loss of the 25km drone range and loss of 2.5 effective light and medium drones , drops it back down again.

The light and medium drone issue, simply is only an annoyance, if the effective drone range is restored.

So very simply I applaud the options made possible by the new rattlesnake, but losing 25km of the drone range makes it effectively no better than the current rattlesnake, just different.

Quite correct, and then the rattlesnake goes from a ship that holds it's own with the other pirate vessels to where it is now, passed over and not really special at anything.

Here you go:

RATTLESNAKE-Melee

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
20% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

Role Bonus:
99% Reduction to missile velocity and travel time
100% Fitting requirement for Capital Tractor Beams
-Note: Capital Tractor Beams fit to the Rattlesnake can be used on Frigates, Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Industrial class ships

Slot layout: 8H(+2), 7M, 4L(-2); 0 turrets, 8 launchers(+4)
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 12750 / 8940(-358) / 9960
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 5350(+38) / 1154000ms / 4.59
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .128 / 99300000 / 18.45s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0(-125) / 0(-all of it)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450(-10)

Edit: Missed an "l" and "8" and now with 76% less silly.

snip... a ship I very much enjoy flying.

Don't like the new Rattlesnake? Get the Nestor instead.

You'll be getting around 780 Dps with 3 DDA from Ogres, so yes if you can get another 700+ Dps out of 5 launchers, 2 BCU and 50% bonus, you will have a 1500 dps battleship.. Chances are though - you won't.
It will be a fine juggling act for Dps - drop a DDA for a BCU, you drop 103 Dps to gain 89. Drop either for a low slot drone tracking link, you are dropping a considerable amount of overall (paper) Dps.

WAAAHHHH!

I don't like or agree with your well thought out and intelligent arguments that prove that I am just a whiny carebear that can't handle change.

You're just a meany and a troll!
I block you!

What really needs to happen is the ships get limited to 2 drones of any size and the drone bonus applied to all sizes of drones.

This could be accomplished by making the Role bonus look like this:

10x bandwidth cost for light drones; 500% bonus to light drone Hitpoints and Damage
5x Bandwidth cost for medium drones; 400% bonus to Medium Drone Hitpoints and Damage

You get to swap your drones out twice and that "only" if all 7 of your drones are the same. Run with Heavies and a couple of sentries (sensible for a little diversity), you get to swap out drones once.
Your "drones on steroids" won't be a lot harder to kill than a tanky frigate. Web shoot - dead, repeat 3 times, Snake is out of drones.

Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from?
It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.

From messing around in EHQ, with 3 BCUs on each, the New snake has 832 DPS with Fury cruise, 6 DPS less than the raven with fury missiles

I didnt disagree with your idea, though I think its a bit of overkill since superdrones will only be in the Gurista line.

I dont really get bent about limiting drones in space, but drone ships lose a lot for drone flexibility, and the last thing we need to do is remove the ability of a drone ship to engage small targets.

Superdrones help with drone destructibility, but do not remove it. Nor do they replace the missing slot. The bonuses also only apply to combat drones, leaving logistic and ewar drones much less effective given the bandwidth limitations of these ships.

The focus on combat is reasonable, but it should cover the smaller drones as well. Simply add appropriate role bonuses to the smaller drones so that the rattler can field similarly powerful flights of small and medium when needed, or further bonus heavies so that they can effectively fill the role that lights normally do on battleships.

True. It is better to have 5 drones. When you have to pull one drone back or a drone gets webbed, that is 50% of your drone dps.

These changes gimp the Rattlesnake severely. Why does CCP think it is okay to **** people over like this? The pirate faction battleships take a very long time to fully train for. The strength of Guristas was their versatility and now the devs apparently want to drastically change them and give them a niche application and gimp them by taking away their large drone bay and missile velocity bonus. Disgusting way to treat your long time customers.

It would be neat to have some ships with super drones but Guristas shouldn't be so drastically changed to do that. Build onto the Guristas strenght, their versatility. All that need change on a Rattlesnake is an extra mid or low slot with that extra high.

On-paper DPS centric thinking is destroying Guristas.

Make those "80km" 100

I dunno, but I think I like the new rattler better.

* Talks to wall to have a more reasonable and constructive conversation*

You have no good argument at all.

The rattlesnake has never been considered too strong and does not need nerfs, it only needs buffs.

There is no reason to change the rattlesnake so drastically from what it was before. This is only being done to make the ships more uniquely different from each other than they already are, it isn't really about balance.

There is no good reason to change Guristas so drastically.

does this guy still seriously think missile velocity is better than a double damage bonus?

These changes really do gimp the Rattlesnake to an unacceptable level that people will only play for the Novelty. Training for a pirate faction battleship takes way to long to change them this much.

You clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about. If you are using your missile salvos to kill frigates in a Rattlesnake, you are doing it wrong. That is highly inefficient in terms of overall DPS.

Seems like I am constantly arguing with bad and incompetent players who don't even understand how the game actually plays out in reality.

Well, they'd have to be switched to armour tanks, then, which'll annoy a whole load more people. We've already got one line of faction shield-missile boats, we don't really need another. The pirate/navy thing is just a label.

CCP Rise 10 - ISD Ezwal 7. As it should be.
It would be sad if I happen to outpost a Dev in his own feedback thread, as that would mean it keeps on derailing.

I have a "misguided belief" that missile velocity increases dps? Look at the post right below yours.

Haven't you made a fool of yourself enough already, kid?

You and mike need to learn your place. Shouldn't you be wearing a sign and dancing around on a sidewalk somewhere so you don't feel like you have to come here to get attention? HAHAHA!

It is clear you don't have the mental capacity for this discussion. So, deal with it, and try find something more productive to do than blithering your ignorant comments all over every page of this thread. Try to salvage at least a shred of your dignity, if you even have any left. It is pathetic.

False. Scroll up and read it again. Afkalt and mike say missile velocity bonus does not increase DPS. I am saying it does. stoicfaux gave examples of why I was correct.

You fail.

HAHAHAHA!

don't be such a simpleton. Of course we are talking about overall DPS. The faster a target blows up, the faster you can switch to a new target. It is so simple yet you lack common sense to understand.

Only a fool would be willing to accept the loss so much utility just to bring the Rattlesnakes DPS closer, but still less than other pirate faction battleships where it belongs. You say you play the snake because it is cheap, yet it has nearly the same DPS as a t1 domi. This tells me that you are an awful player that isn't utilizing the ships versatility. This DPS increase was something it needed anyway and it need not pay a heavy price for that DPS increase.

no, summer cruise missile Snake will not out dps a Golem using rage torps.

Look at Kaadoofus flooding this page with his army of alts. Hilarious

its losing its resistance to e-war, its primary dps is changing from drones to missiles. additionally, webbing or having to pull back a drone will loss of 50% of your drone dps.

Also its losing its bonuses on light drones making harder to deal with frigates.

its losing its 400m3 drone bay.

its losing its velocity bonus.

You claimed that it is only losing 20km on its drone range.

the obvious conclusion is that you aren't worth debating since you can't seem to understand this. this is a very simple concept.

its primary dps is still drones. ~800 is still more than ~500.

Just to backtrack a bit and resurrect the discussion Tyberius Franklin and I were havingGǪ I was able to modify pyfa (thanks Sable Blitzmann!) by hacking the stats on a Berserker I heavy drone. When you drop a pair of Geckos into your Rattlesnake on Tuesday they will deliver 875 dps with V skills utilizing 4x T2 DDAs. 4x T2 DNC's will take this to 5k m/sec velocity.

With the release of the Summer expansion (assuming no further changes to the OP), a single Gecko with the same configuration will bump this to 1095 dps with just over 7k m/sec velocity. To put that in perspective, if you simultaneously launch cruise missiles and the GeckoGǪ the Gecko will hit first.


I'll post an update shortly with a revised EHP.

You are pulling those numbers out of your *******.

And why do you keep talking about a "pair of geckos"? The new Rattlesnake only has 50 bandwidth and a gecko requires 50 bandwidth.

Don't you yahoos feel a little silly talking about the Gecko as if everyone is going to have access to them? For all we know it could be a tournament prize. Try to stay on topic instead of drifting into the realm of "what if blah blah blah".

Can't you and Kaaldoofus just send pms to each other so the devs don't have to read your mindless blather? This thread wouldn't be half as long if you two had a lives. The devs would be thankful.

Wait untill some of these forum dwellers finally get to try out what they have been mentally masturbating over for the past couple of weeks. The paper dps-centric fantasies will be shattered by the reality that heavy drones still suck, and there are better pirate faction battleships for sniping. There will be no reason to fly a Rattlesnake other than the novelty of using 2 drones instead of 5.


Lets look at what the Rattlesnake is losing again, shall we?

- 400m3 drone bay
-+50%missile velocity bonus
- +50% drone bonus damage and hp on on light and medium drones


And gain.
+1 launcher
+50% missile damage for thermal and kinetic only.


5 drone are better than 2, and the increased reliance on missiles for DPS means much greater susceptibility to e-war. The nerfs are greater than the buffs to a ship that was already considered to be UP.

Why do Guristas have to be the victims of CCP attempts to reduce drone numbers instead doing it to the infinitely more popular Dominix?

The Guristas are very unique already and these changes make no sense at all. How many drone boats are there that have a missile velocity bonus?

Very poorly thought out changes if you ask me. Do the right thing and take it back to the drawing board or you will just have to change it again.

You're running a passive fit? As in no Rigors? Only three DPS mods shared between drones and missiles? For missions? Uhm... okay...